The Future of Maven & OSGi

[Jason van Zyl]

A new mailing list has been setup for those interested. You can read
about it here:

http://www.sonatype.com/people/2009/03/the-future-of-maven-osgi-join-the-tycho-users-mailing-list/

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder, Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
----------------------------------------------------------

A man enjoys his work when he understands the whole and when he
is responsible for the quality of the whole

-- Christopher Alexander, A Pattern Language

[adrians]

Hi Jason,

In thread
http://www.nabble.com/What-is-the-current-situation-WRT-Spring-Tooling-Spring-DM-Server-and-Maven-Tycho--td21815222.html#a21928171
I tried to get a clearer picture of where Maven & OSGi support (both
command-line and within Eclipse) is heading. Based on Igor's answers and
other information I've read, I think that I understand your roadmap, except
for the fact that you don't have much to say in regards to how this all fits
in with the Spring Framework which also provides tooling around OSGi and
dependency resolution (currently the m2eclipse support and the Spring
tooling are not totally compatible when it comes to dependency management,
from what I gather).

It would be great if both Sonatype and SpringSource could provide more
clarity in this area. Spring is a very widely used framework and to sort of
ignore the elephant in the room on your part doesn't make sense, IMO, and
with the reverse being true for SpringSource. Part of your and
SpringSource's stories should be addressing compatibility with the other's
tools. Igor didn't seem to be familiar with what SpringSource offered at the
time of the thread mentioned above, and, based on talking to Colin (from
SpringSource) it didn't look like they had given enough consideration to
m2eclipse/Tycho and its OSGi support. Both Sonatype's and SpringSource's
attitude (likely unintentional, but still shortsighted IMO) wrt to this
subject is very frustrating as a user of both Maven and Spring. I've
mentioned to both Igor and Colin (hoping he would pass it on) that if it is
an impossibility to work together in some fashion, it would be better than
the current situation if you (both Sonatype and SpringSource) could at least
provide the means to disable some functionality in your tools so that you
don't step on each other's toes when it comes to dependency resolution.


Cheers and here's to improved integration among the various tools,

Adrian Sampaleanu

Post by Jason van Zyl
A new mailing list has been setup for those interested. You can read
http://www.sonatype.com/people/2009/03/the-future-of-maven-osgi-join-the-tycho-users-mailing-list/
Thanks,
Jason
----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder, Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
----------------------------------------------------------
A man enjoys his work when he understands the whole and when he
is responsible for the quality of the whole
-- Christopher Alexander, A Pattern Language
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email

[Jason van Zyl]

Post by adrians
Hi Jason,
In thread
http://www.nabble.com/What-is-the-current-situation-WRT-Spring-Tooling-Spring-DM-Server-and-Maven-Tycho--td21815222.html#a21928171
I tried to get a clearer picture of where Maven & OSGi support (both
command-line and within Eclipse) is heading. Based on Igor's answers and
other information I've read, I think that I understand your roadmap, except
for the fact that you don't have much to say in regards to how this all fits
in with the Spring Framework which also provides tooling around OSGi and
dependency resolution (currently the m2eclipse support and the Spring
tooling are not totally compatible when it comes to dependency
management,
from what I gather).

We are going to build standard tooling for Eclipse plugin development
and OSGi bundles. SpringSource can contribute to the effort and use
the parts of the tooling they wish. SpringSource will be present at
the OSGi Tooling Summit on March 27th so it's really a matter of the
SpringSource folks bringing the concerns of their users to the summit.
We don't plan to make anything non-standard in our OSGi tooling so it
should work for everyone working with OSGi.

Post by adrians
It would be great if both Sonatype and SpringSource could provide more
clarity in this area. Spring is a very widely used framework and to sort of
ignore the elephant in the room on your part doesn't make sense, IMO, and
with the reverse being true for SpringSource. Part of your and
SpringSource's stories should be addressing compatibility with the other's
tools. Igor didn't seem to be familiar with what SpringSource
offered at the
time of the thread mentioned above, and, based on talking to Colin (from
SpringSource) it didn't look like they had given enough
consideration to
m2eclipse/Tycho and its OSGi support.

Our tooling is meant to be general purpose so it should work and we're
interested in working with anyone. This is one of the reasons we're
having our Maven Meetup this week where we are trying to share
information about everything we're doing in this area. I will also be
at EclipseCon next week and I'm going to the OSGi Tooling Summit.

Post by adrians
Both Sonatype's and SpringSource's
attitude (likely unintentional, but still shortsighted IMO) wrt to this
subject is very frustrating as a user of both Maven and Spring.

Sonatype is relatively small compared to SpringSource so the only
thing that we can do right now is focus on standard tooling. I think
we've also been completely open with everything that we're doing with
OSGi so I don't think there is any mystery about what we're going
support.

Post by adrians
I've
mentioned to both Igor and Colin (hoping he would pass it on) that if it is
an impossibility to work together in some fashion, it would be
better than
the current situation if you (both Sonatype and SpringSource) could at least
provide the means to disable some functionality in your tools so that you
don't step on each other's toes when it comes to dependency
resolution.

We're happy to work with anyone, so there's no intentional avoidance.

In fact, we have both made a first step. Sonatype has made a
presentation to the SpringSource folks about everything that we're
planning on doing insofar as OSGi tooling and I'm sure we'll chat
during EclipseCon and the OSGi Tooling Summit.

Post by adrians
Cheers and here's to improved integration among the various tools,
Adrian Sampaleanu

Post by Jason van Zyl
A new mailing list has been setup for those interested. You can read
http://www.sonatype.com/people/2009/03/the-future-of-maven-osgi-join-the-tycho-users-mailing-list/
Thanks,
Jason
----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder, Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
----------------------------------------------------------
A man enjoys his work when he understands the whole and when he
is responsible for the quality of the whole
-- Christopher Alexander, A Pattern Language
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/The-Future-of-Maven---OSGi-tp22418803p22561860.html
Sent from the Maven Eclipse - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder, Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
----------------------------------------------------------

What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good people
can fix bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people.

-- Paul Graham

[adrians]

Jason,

If it sounded like I was asking for Sonatype to support any non-standard
OSGi, I apologize. From what I understand there are resource constraints in
both companies, so asking for extra functionality on either part would be
unreasonable at this time. I simply would like to be able to use use
multiple tools in parallel without having them interfere with each other.
The ability to turn certain overlapping features off in one or the other of
the tools would be welcomed as it would acknowledge that these tools don't
work in a vacuum. Very likely this isn't so simple to achieve and still
leave the tool functioning properly, but maybe it has some possibilities. In
any case, I'm curious and hopeful to see what comes after the events you
mentioned.

Cheers

[Jason van Zyl]

Post by adrians
Jason,
If it sounded like I was asking for Sonatype to support any non-
standard
OSGi, I apologize. From what I understand there are resource
constraints in
both companies, so asking for extra functionality on either part would be
unreasonable at this time. I simply would like to be able to use use
multiple tools in parallel without having them interfere with each other.
The ability to turn certain overlapping features off in one or the other of
the tools would be welcomed as it would acknowledge that these tools don't
work in a vacuum. Very likely this isn't so simple to achieve and still
leave the tool functioning properly, but maybe it has some
possibilities. In
any case, I'm curious and hopeful to see what comes after the events you
mentioned.

I think you have SpringSource's answer here:

http://www.springsource.com/node/1384

We are going to do standard OSGi tooling so all of our work should be
compatible.

Post by adrians
Cheers
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/The-Future-of-Maven---OSGi-tp22418803p22562945.html
Sent from the Maven Eclipse - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder, Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
----------------------------------------------------------

First, the taking in of scattered particulars under one Idea,
so that everyone understands what is being talked about ... Second,
the separation of the Idea into parts, by dividing it at the joints,
as nature directs, not breaking any limb in half as a bad carver might.

-- Plato, Phaedrus (Notes on the Synthesis of Form by C. Alexander)

[Rusty Wright]

Also see

http://blog.springsource.com/2009/03/18/our-plans-for-building-osgi-applications/

Post by Jason van Zyl

Post by adrians
Jason,
If it sounded like I was asking for Sonatype to support any non-standard
OSGi, I apologize. From what I understand there are resource
constraints in
both companies, so asking for extra functionality on either part would be
unreasonable at this time. I simply would like to be able to use use
multiple tools in parallel without having them interfere with each other.
The ability to turn certain overlapping features off in one or the other of
the tools would be welcomed as it would acknowledge that these tools don't
work in a vacuum. Very likely this isn't so simple to achieve and still
leave the tool functioning properly, but maybe it has some
possibilities. In
any case, I'm curious and hopeful to see what comes after the events you
mentioned.

http://www.springsource.com/node/1384
We are going to do standard OSGi tooling so all of our work should be
compatible.

Post by adrians
Cheers
--
http://www.nabble.com/The-Future-of-Maven---OSGi-tp22418803p22562945.html
Sent from the Maven Eclipse - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email

Thanks,
Jason
----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder, Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
----------------------------------------------------------
First, the taking in of scattered particulars under one Idea,
so that everyone understands what is being talked about ... Second,
the separation of the Idea into parts, by dividing it at the joints,
as nature directs, not breaking any limb in half as a bad carver might.
-- Plato, Phaedrus (Notes on the Synthesis of Form by C. Alexander)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email

[Igor Fedorenko]

It is worth mentioning that we are making changes to both m2e and tycho
that should allow better a better platform for writing thirdparty tools.

m2e 0.9.8 will have something we tentatively call "explicit maven
project lifecycle mapping". This will allow m2e exploiters to
selectively enable and disable m2e functionality based on project
packaging type or even for individual projects. You will be able to
completely disable m2e builder and classpath container for spring
projects, for example (not sure why you'd want this, but you'd be able
to). You can read more about 0.9.8 planned changes in [1].

On the tycho side we are planning to rework build target platform
management and it will likely become possible to plug different
dependency resolution implementations. This may allow custom resolver
with springdm-specific functionality. I'll be posting more information
about this next few days so stay tuned.

[1] http://docs.codehaus.org/display/M2ECLIPSE/0.9.8+Plan

--
Regards,
Igor

Post by adrians
Jason,
If it sounded like I was asking for Sonatype to support any non-standard
OSGi, I apologize. From what I understand there are resource constraints in
both companies, so asking for extra functionality on either part would be
unreasonable at this time. I simply would like to be able to use use
multiple tools in parallel without having them interfere with each other.
The ability to turn certain overlapping features off in one or the other of
the tools would be welcomed as it would acknowledge that these tools don't
work in a vacuum. Very likely this isn't so simple to achieve and still
leave the tool functioning properly, but maybe it has some possibilities. In
any case, I'm curious and hopeful to see what comes after the events you
mentioned.
Cheers

[adrians]

Jason,

I've posted a similar request in the SpringSource development tooling forum,
addressed to Christian, referring him to the relevant threads in this list.

http://forum.springframework.org/showthread.php?p=231983#post231983

Cheers